[0:00] Intros
[4:30] Brand in the context of SEO
[13:33] What role does Google’s data play in user satisfaction? Content Quality vs. Brand
[21:00] How different are the algorithms in 2024 compared to insights from the DOJ Antitrust trial which started in 2020?
[29:00] Hidden Gems and subjective assessments of quality
[34:25] Why Reddit and Quora are winning visibility for opinion content
[42:18] What does the future of search look like in the context of AI search engines?
[51:47] What do we think will happen with Google in the context of the Antitrust trial?
[55:00] Conclusion and summary of the chat
Watch our live pop-up AMA recorded on Monday, September 16th.
Host Garrett Sussman, Marketing Lead at iPullRank, was joined by SEO experts Marie Haynes (MHC), AJ Kohn (Blind 5 Year Old), and Rob Ousbey (SEMEtrics.co).
This roundtable covered the latest Google Core Algorithm update, the Google Antitrust trial, the rising impact of brand preference in search, and how AI is shaping the future of SEO.
Don’t forget to please SUBSCRIBE on YouTube if you enjoy the webinar.
Over the course of 2024, brand has become a clear differentiator in Organic Search. Established brands appear higher on search results than their quality may earn on merit. Is it fair? No. But SEOs need to adjust to a reality that doesn’t always incentivize or reward the best content. With our panel of experts, we discussed the current state of brand in SEO, where we think it’s going, and what SEOs can focus on to navigate it. Garrett, Marie, AJ, and Rob shared their perspectives and recommendations for Organic Search.
Marie Haynes: You used to be able to ‘SEO’ your way to any rankings. But now, SEO is about what people want and people want brands.
AJ Kohn: Google has a brand bias because people have a brand bias. Two major factors have changed recently:
Rob Ousbey: Eric Schmidt said, “Brands are how we sort out the cesspool, that is, the web.”
Historically (7-8 years ago), branded search volume correlated with visibility (more than domain authority). Qualitatively, branded search results aren’t always what people expect. Google presents what everyday people expect. Google is not trying to be ‘clever.’ The best way to rank for auto insurance is spending 20 years pouring billions of dollars into advertising. If Google turned down any brand signals, we’d most likely see satisfaction metrics change dramatically.
Garrett Sussman: Content quality is a tricky and subjective term, yet Google uses quantitative metrics to assess it. Sundar Pichai claims that people love AI Overviews based on their data despite the fact that vocal people on the internet say they hate it. We don’t have Google’s data, so how do we as SEOs know whether it’s a truth or a marketing play?
Marie Haynes: I don’t think it’s marketing, but we don’t know what they have. Initially, they scaled back AI Overviews, and they are rolling them out more. In the earnings call, Pichai said that people are going back to them and spending more time on the AI Overviews. People are clicking the links. We need to pay attention to AI Overviews because Google wants it to work and It’s the future of search.
AJ Kohn: Quality is problematic (referencing It’s Goog Enough!). People are no longer able to discern quality content like they were before. Mostly, because we rely too much on brand.
In the DOJ ruling, we see info about Google’s ablation studies – they removed features to analyze the impact of making search results worse- removing content the quantity of two times of Wikipedia out of search. The results didn’t change people’s behaviors. It doesn’t matter what Google does, people still click through.
Does Google care about quality or pure brand affinity? They reduced information satisfaction by one point, and people didn’t care.
Quality doesn’t matter. If you can build a large brand, you get a lot of leeway with the quality of your content. Google doesn’t understand quality, because it’s too dependent on click data.
Garrett Sussman: You have the quality rater guidelines, which attempt at editorial guidance. You have Navboost, which leads to questions about how they’re assessing user click data.
Marie Haynes: The March Core Update represented a massive shift in how Google ranks sites. Google announces Gemini 1.5. That advancement with vector embeddings allowed Gemini to introduce new signals and architecture. Clicks are no longer the determinative quality. Now, Google may be able to assess content quality more effectively. Not to say it negates brand authority and impact.
Quality Rater Guidelines highlight that you can improve your brand via reputation and what your brand is ‘known for.’ Brand is more about your reputation in the real world, digital world outside of organic search, and the experience of organic search results.
Rob Ousbey: Your brand builds trust and reputation that your content or products will be high quality. Could AI assess content quality independent of brand signals? Do these AI capabilities lead to better search results based purely on content quality and create a more democratic ranking?
Marie Haynes: Touching on Hidden Gems, Google was going to surface better content from lesser-known blog posts. In theory, the AI improvements and machine learning would allow for a lesser-known publisher could produce helpful content. Google still has a lot of work to do to get to that point. We tend to think our content is great. Our understanding of what is helpful needs to change, but Google needs to start incentivizing and rewarding what is helpful.
AJ Kohn: Google hasn’t gotten better at identifying better quality content. The focus should be on multi-modal. Blogs are dead and we should invest in more video content. TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, that’s what people want. Clicks and engagement still matter. It’s the training of the models. They are slaves to users. Google is leaning against quality right now.
Garrett Sussman: Search intent still needs to be taken into consideration when advising on content type. Video isn’t appropriate for every type of search. What’s problematic (in the context of nuanced information that’s opinion-based and not factual) is that Google is editorializing what should be surfaced at the top based on click data. It’s frustrating if the highest-ranking perspectives are mostly incentivized based on popularity even if they’re based on hateful or incorrect ideology.
AJ Kohn: That’s why Google is leaning heavily on Reddit and Quora in the search results. To surface opinions that are moderated by these forums of perspectives. People know that Reddit will have really bad takes, but there will be highly valuable facts or opinions that are buried in those threads. The reason that Reddit and Quora might be rising is because of the challenge for Google to compare and contrast all of the individual opinions that are published on independent blogs that might be purely focused on monetization via affiliate revenue. Forums are better at curating the value without that ulterior motive baked into the content.
It’s a different time on the internet where independent bloggers write for the purpose of monetizing.
Rob Ousbey: AI Overviews have value because they quickly and instantly aggregate and summarize all of the opinions of the internet. Recipes are still strong.
AJ Kohn: Recipes are being produced on TikTok, Instagram, and even Gemini. A large segment of people think Google search results are not as good as they were 10 years ago. People are jaded and get the sense that results are SEO’d and manufactured. They’re right.
That’s what makes SEO fun. Google and user behavior are changing. If Gen Z and Gen Alpha don’t use Google as much, how should we change our approach as SEOs?
Marie Haynes: My wild theory: There’s a video of Larry Page from 2000. He’s talking about AI. He predicts a future of Google that uses AI systems to engage with search. For many years, Google needed blogs to train its systems. Now they need Reddit to learn how people talk and use it to augment the results and GenAI output. You need to be using Gemini as an SEO because Google will be building all of search into the Gemini assistant. Marie demoed Project Astra at Google I/O. AI will be able to take all of the contextual data around you (video, audio) to inform its answers. She jumps to the neural link and a cognitive interface.
AJ Kohn: Speaking to Project Astra – the future is decentralized search. We will eventually have a private, personalized search in your pocket. Google can be wickedly good at business. You can see the potential that a contextual search will allow for hyper-targeted advertising. Your personalized version of Google. We also underestimate the value of Google Lens, Circle Search, and searching our real environment.
Garrett Sussman: What do we think will happen with Google in the context of the Antitrust trial?
AJ Kohn: Google has too big of a moat to lose its advantage in the market (without outside forces interfering). The judge basically said you’ve got the best search engine. Go win on merit and stop taking advantage of 3rd party environments with outsized exclusivity deals. Stop paying for being the default. They’re not going to be broken up.
Rob Ousbey: If they only remove the exclusivity deals, the average person is going to switch back to Google anyway. They have too much of a lead. Self-reinforcing. It’s a monopoly that doesn’t cost users: best search engine, best video, best email.
Marie is recognized as a leader in the SEO industry and has worked for years to understand what Google’s algorithms work to reward. She is known for her teachings on E-E-A-T and link quality. Lately, her work has focused on understanding the use of vector search for understanding and meeting intent. She’s focused on learning and teaching more about systems like RankBrain and Navboost.
AJ Kohn is Owner of Blind Five Year Old, a Digital Marketing firm specializing in search.
A successful track record spanning 25 years, AJ combines a deep understanding of search marketing with a passion for product strategy and iterative product development, fusing design and user experience with quantitative analysis.
A recognized thought leader and widely referenced expert AJ currently works with comScore Top 50 web properties and serves as a marketing advisor to a number VC-backed start-ups.
Rob Ousbey is an SEO consultant, marketing strategist and product builder. After more than a decade as a leader at Distilled and Moz, he works with brands to draw crucial insights from data, and supercharge their SEO performance. Rob’s latest projects include SEMetrics.co – a data-driven SEO tool, and cloudle.app – a ripoff game that went way more viral than he was expecting. Rob loves whisky cocktails, the great outdoors, and his kid – not necessarily in that order.
Garrett Sussman has worked in marketing for over fourteen years across a number of disciplines including, content marketing, demand generation, affiliate marketing, and SEO.
Garrett previously led marketing at online review SaaS startup Grade.us (acquired by Traject in 2019). He’s hosted 2 podcasts and recorded over 150 podcast episodes
Will Google’s AI Overviews (SGE) tank your organic traffic?
iPullRank is a pioneering content marketing and enterprise SEO agency leading the way in Generative AI, Technical SEO, Audience-Focused SEO, and Content Engineering. People-first in our approach, we’ve delivered $4B+ in organic search results for our clients.
iPullRank is an NMSDC-certified Black-owned business. We support the NMSDC network in its mission to reshape the diversity landscape.
iPullRank is a pioneering content marketing and enterprise SEO agency leading the way in Technical SEO, Audience-Focused SEO, and Content Engineering. People-first in our approach, we’ve delivered $4B+ in organic search results for our clients.
iPullRank is an NMSDC-certified Black-owned business. We support the NMSDC network in its mission to reshape the diversity landscape.
