Rankable Ep.8 – Black Owned Businesses During a Recession

In this episode of Rankable, we are joined by  Octavia Warren Gilmore, Founder/Chief Creative Director at Creative Juice.

Our discussion revolved around the hardships that black owned business owners have to face during these unprecedented times, and the story of how these two successful black owned businesses came to be. 

Feel free to tune in and hear what Octavia and Mike had to say about their journey of entrepreneurship and how these two businesses plan to thrive going forward. 

Video Transcription

Jarrett Thomas

Hey, good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to Rankable episode 8. I’m your host, Jarrett Thomas, Senior Account Executive at iPullRank. We have two special guests today with a very important topic that we’ll be going over today. I have founder and manager director of iPullRank, Michael King and also have founder of Creative Juice, Octavia Gilmore. How’s it going? How’s it going guys? How’s your day go?

Octavia Gilmore

Hey!

Mike King

Fantastic. 

Jarrett Thomas

Perfect guys. Thank you again. And for everybody watching at home and joining us that will be watching. Thank you for your continued support, it’s episode 8 of our series. And for those who haven’t joined, this is our basically a segment where we basically go over anything related to marketing. We talk about sales. We also talk about current events and current topics. And today we’re going to be talking about black owned businesses during the recession.

And this is a very important topic for us as African Americans, but as business owners, you know, some statistics that were actually recently released by the New York times showed that there were a million black owned businesses in the U.S around February. And now there’s only 400,000 that are currently surviving right now, this current, during the pandemic. 

So we want to discuss what are those challenges as a black owned business owner, right? How do you survive and navigate through these challenges and really what are some actionable advice that we could give to others that are trying to navigate? So I’d love to start off with the first question, you know, as you guys know what the pandemic and millions of Americans out of work, which is going to eventually lead to more business owners. So curious to know what led you guys to start your own business and what was that process like?

Octavia Gilmore

Sure. Um, so I pretty much come from a family of creatives and no one pursued a career in any type of creative fields. My family had a tee shirt line back in the day where they screen printed my uncle’s designs on these t-shirts to sell it to the church. So that was kind of like my first introduction to using your creative talents to make money. Right? So I went to school freelance all throughout college, and built up my clientele.

I always knew I wanted to start a marketing firm, but I thought I’m like 20, right? So I’m telling myself, yeah, I’m gonna do that when I’m like 40 whatever. I graduated and got a job in corporate America as a graphic designer at a really large company. And I just did not like the politics. I was like, this is not for me.

But you know, everyone’s scares you like, Oh, you need a full time job, blah, blah, blah. It’s hard out here. So I think when it finally got to the point where I was still freelancing and I would go meet clients during lunch and it just became too hectic. And I realize I have enough clients that I can like do this full time. So I just took that leap of faith and I quit my job and I launched Creative Juice pretty much as a one woman shop. 

And about six months in, I had so many people knocking at my door. I’m like, I got too much work. So what am I going to do? Am I going to tell people now I’m good or find somebody to help me? So that’s what I did. I found a guy in Greenville, South Carolina, I’m in Atlanta. And I said, Hey, I need you for like 15 hours a week. He’s like, okay, cool. What I could see now I started to 40 hours consistently. Um, and then we just kept growing and growing ever since. So that’s how I kinda got to the point where we are today. Very much organic growth, throughout the past seven and a half years.

Jarrett Thomas

Perfect. And I’d actually like to ask you a follow up question with that. Like, what are some of the politics that you were dealing with that made you go, and then ultimately, what are some of the things you have to prioritize to start your own business? Where do you think like funding first? Were you thinking of other things? Like what was the one when you said I’m going to do this.

Octavia Gilmore

Right. So luckily for me, I own a services based company. There isn’t much startup costs besides a laptop and Photoshop and internet access. So that’s allowed me to get started fairly easily. And again, as long as I had clients back in the day when Craigslist was lit, I used to post on Craigslist. I would be out here. Like I never left the house without my business card. I didn’t play that. 

I used to use my school’s career, job board and get gigs from there. So that’s kinda how I was able to get my name out there and just continue to network and build those relationships. So because of this, I didn’t really need that much startup capital. I’m finally at the point now, seven and a half years in where I want to scale it and get it to the next level. And I think I am going to need capital to do that, but I haven’t taken any money. Everything has just been organic growth and like bootstrapping and putting it back into the business to help it get to the next level. And what was the first part of the question?

Jarrett Thomas

What I wanted to ask you was, what were some of the politics you dealt with at the other larger firms that you were working at?

Octavia Gilmore

Well, technically it’s politics now being an agency owner just in a different manner. But I think when I worked in corporate, it was very cliquey or like whoever was here before me, like I would go after a job, but then somebody knew somebody else. I would kind of like the last person in the door. So I didn’t have as many internal connections. And I know in corporate America is really good that you network internally, right. So that you can make your moves. I was like first coming into the door. So it was just hard for me to kinda maneuver in that situation. Um, and then also the hierarchy, right? Having to answer to someone who answers to someone, my friends always call me bossy, whatever that means, I am not the person who likes to have a boss, I like to do what I want to do.

So I think just the politics around the hierarchy in the organization. And even like at one point I worked for another company and I was the only person of color. I was the only creative person everybody else was. So I didn’t even, I just felt like I didn’t fit in and I did my job and I did it extremely well. I didn’t feel like there was a culture fit either, which we know as creatives, corporate America is not that many of us. Especially when you are creative in corporate, a lot of times we do wine and spirits, entertainment, sports, but when you get to that corporate space is even more or less of us and you have less people who are above you that can reach back and help pull you up. Unfortunately. So, yeah.

Mike King

Yeah. And you know, my former manager and friend Tony, he just started something called black and brilliant, which is very much about what you just described. He’s gotten like some like 500 people to sign up, to really help black people get to the next level in their careers. Cause there’s a lot of stuff for like bringing people in at the junior level, like internships and things like that. Like Google partners that would improve the computer science curriculum, things like that. 

But there isn’t much out there once we get in and then like get up, you know, my story is quite similar to what you just described where it’s like, if this environment wasn’t for me. Right? And so I was like, all right, well, let’s make an environment that is for me. And so, you know, like six years ago when I started this company that was after working at like four or five different agencies and loving aspects of it, but not feeling like it was the place for me.

Jarrett Thomas

Same. I think I have a similar story. Do you guys, I just didn’t take the leap of faith. You know, I think the biggest concern for me when I first started in the business, my first inception of digital marketing. I was working at a display advertising company. It was more like a churn and burn type of scenario. You get in there, you have to hit this number by Friday. If you don’t go on Monday, I was the top performer there. I was doing about 250,000 a quarter. 

My boss at the time took me upstairs. It’s like the people, the board that don’t understand you, I’m like, what does that mean? You know what I mean? I’m doing 250K a quarter. I’m going to lunch with you guys, like your son stays at my house sometime, what does that mean? So my appearance, I had long braids down my back. I was wearing baggy slacks. 

I was new into the corporate world. And essentially I had a decision right then and there. Do I hold on, stick to my guns? Do I leave right then and there, because I know that’s something that shouldn’t be asked enough. Right. Or do I just shut up? Kind of take one on the chin and cut my hair and feed my family. And I had to go for the latter. 

So we all have those types of scenarios where, you know, we try to fit in where we’re more than just the name and a number. We don’t really see. We were very undervalued, you know, and people don’t understand that. That’s really a big thing. Like culture fit my last position before coming to iPullRank, I was two African American employees out of 250 people. 

Octavia Gilmore

Wow. 

Mike King

It’s crazy. 

Jarrett Thomas

And then got fired because I would ask him for Zoom Info. It’s things like that, you know, that really make us who we are. And I’m definitely appreciative of you guys sharing your stories and actually taking that leap of faith. Cause me, I think it was just like, how do I start? What do I do first? You know? And then I think people don’t want to fail. You know what I mean, people are scared to fail. I know me myself. It’s like, this is your baby, you know, you see it grow and then part to see something to it. It’s crazy.

Mike King

So here’s the thing, in the black community, it’s very important for us to be better than everyone else. And what I mean by that is like, you know, if you’re going to do something, you gotta do it better than the other person. You’ve gotta be perfect. You’ve gotta be like the Cosby family. You know what I mean? Cause like we’re, we’re in mixed company, we’re all representing all black people and you know, I can’t speak for all other races and so on, but I can say that, you know, there’s a lot of people that don’t have to carry that when they are going through their day to day lives. 

And when we talk about white privilege or anything like that, that’s what that is. Like not having to worry if you’re representing your entire race, if you mess something up. So it’s very common to say, especially like the startup world, like it’s okay to fail and, you know, fail fast and all these things, but in a lot of ways that doesn’t apply to us cause we’ve been conditioned that we always have to do the best because we’re representing all black people.

Octavia Gilmore

Right, You don’t get a second chance. You screw up, that’s it.

Jarrett Thomas

Absolutely, and failure cost. Right? Because it goes back to an even larger topic. It’s about the funding, right? How can we go into these banks and get the proper funding that we need to help our business thrive and survive through these times. And that’s a big thing. Right? So one of the things they said from the New York Times compared to black businesses, 41% shuttered compared to 17% that were white businesses. I thought that was so interesting. You know what I mean?

Mike King

Yeah. And that’s the thing, I mean, when we talk about systemic racism, like having access to capital has always been problematic for us. Like that is like the concept behind things like red lining and stuff. It’s like, okay, if you live in this certain area, we just know we don’t give money to people living in that area. And so, you know, that’s been the experience of banks in general and as of late, because of the shift in the Overton window of sociopolitically people are no longer accepting of how we’re treating black people. 

You hear a lot more banks talking about like, how do we be more inclusive here? Like a business banker being like, how can we help out black people? But you know, this is like brand new. I’m talking about in the last couple of weeks. You’re hearing stuff like this. The reality of it is we need capital. We can’t find it. And anything, you gotta go after alternative lenders, which are far more predatory and puts your business at more of a disadvantage.

Octavia Gilmore

I will say. Even with the PPP loan that I was trying to get, Oh my gosh. Like I was very disappointed to see that all these large businesses got it over, like the small businesses and I bank with a really large business or bank. And my financial institution could not get it together. Like they didn’t even submit my application. And they’re like, well, we got over 5,000 applications and I’m like, that’s unacceptable. Like I need this money more than ever. And y’all haven’t even submitted my application. 

I had to build a relationship with a smaller bank when I was able to get approved. But it’s just like, I’ve been banking with y’all for five years. The least you could do is put my application through the SBA so I can get a loan. And it’s just like, it was very frustrating for me. I kind of went on a rant on LinkedIn, but we’re not gonna talk about that. But yeah. Access to capital is very important. I will say one thing that I learned years ago was I have a, like a revolving line of credit for my business and I got it when I didn’t need it. And then when I needed it, I had it. So that’s always important having that access in advance before you actually need it. Cause then you’re going to be scrambling trying to get it.

Mike King

But that’s the thing, that’s the time when you can get it. Like when you’re, when you’re going after a line of credit, would they want to see if 1. You have a track record of making money and then 2. That you’re going to have receivables for the foreseeable future. Right? And so the thing is like, and I’ll be full disclosure here, like coming into this, like starting this business, you know, I was a rapper for eight years and so my credit was not great. It’s fantastic now, like when I first started with.

Octavia Gilmore

When were you rapping?!

Mike King 

Oh, you didn’t know this about me. 

Octavia Gilmore

No!

Mike King 

We’ll talk about that later. Anyway. So, you know, coming into this, I didn’t have a great credit score, so I’m trying to get lines of credit and so on and so forth. And it’s like, there was just nothing available to me and that’s my fault. You know, having good credit is a prerequisite, but even in those cases, there’ve been many instances where, you know, a black person walks into a bank. There was an instance recently where a black person walked into a bank, he was like an NFL player and so on. And they wouldn’t give him the private client thing and all that. So, you know, there’s those biases, no matter what situation you come into it.

Jarrett Thomas

And then we also have a question from William, he said, can you talk about ways you win business? I think there’s many ways of, do you want me to take this Mike?

Mike King 

Go for it, go for it.

Jarrett Thomas

Yeah. In terms of ways to win business, I know we’ve done a lot of different things to make sure we stay top of mind for our prospects. So one being things like Rankable, right? How do we create content that is valuable to our audience? And then we stay top of mind. Right? I think a big thing too is Mike’s notoriety within the space helps us a lot to understand, you know, who our prospects are, but we have to go outside the norm. Right? 

We can’t just send a cold email and expect somebody to respond to us in a way that matters because everybody’s being affected or impacted in some way, the best advice I can do that’s been working for me is the personal branding aspect. And I begin our sales team more in line with that, sending personal video messages, sharing your story. Relating to your prospects, right. Sharing things that they would relate and use in a business fashion format. And then they come to us and then you build those relationships because without those relationships right now, man, it’d be hard to even have a meeting at all. Emails are bounceing back. People are furloughed. So there’s so many different ways you need to be creative about winning business. Right. Go above and beyond.

Mike King 

Octavia, what about you? How are you approaching it?

Octavia Gilmore

I was going to say definitely using your network, going back to those relationships. I’m just realizing how important it is to reach out to people I know and let them know what I’m interested in, seeing what they’re connected to. Because that warm introduction is much, much better than a cold one. And then I think also really hunkering down on your key differentiator. 

So creative juice was a black female millennial owned agency before it was a thing. And now, you know, Oh, that’s all the rave. So how can I leverage that? And gain more visibility for my company. And you know, again, being a millennial, everyone used to talk so much shit about millenials, but now it’s like, Oh, well we want to do this thing. And we don’t know what it is, call the millennials. Right? So it’s like, how do you turn that seemingly negative connotation into something positive, and really highlight the value that you bring from having that different perspective is important.

Mike King 

Yeah. I mean, I think that, like I was saying where as black people, we always have to represent all black people. I’ve always tried to stand out in some way. Like I’ve always tried to do the best thing I can think of and that’s conducive to good marketing because you’re inherently identifying your USP and like really, you know, driving it forward. So as an example, we just finished a movie and when I say we just finished a movie, I’m saying that there’s a conference that I’m speaking at next week and they decided to prerecord it cause it’s virtual and all that. 

And I was like, alright, well let’s make a movie. And so that’s going to come out and people are going to be like, Oh wow, did you see what Mike did? And that’s going to generate more discussion and so on, but I want to get into Tony’s question. I’m really curious, I’d say from your perspective on this, he asked, do your clients expect something different from you based on being a black owned business?

Octavia Gilmore

I think it depends on the clients. I don’t necessarily know if they expect something different. There have been times that I’ve pitched businesses and they literally say to me, Oh, this was great. This wasn’t what I expected now I’ve never pressed, but I’m just like, well, what do you mean by that? You didn’t expect me to be as professional or as knowledgeable as a black woman. So I kinda of, it seemed like a little underhanded compliment. 

I will also say, a lot of solo preneurs who are minorities come to creative just because we are a minority. And unfortunately it’s with this five and a thousand dollar budgets and I really can’t do anything for that low of a cost. So I it’s been a struggle for me to figure out how can I create some type of pricing structure where I can help people in my community who want to be entrepreneurs or who are starting their own business because they want to work with someone that looks like them without sacrificing the integrity of the client experience and the work that we provide.

But I wouldn’t say they expect something different. I would say, depending on who’s in the room who I’m speaking to, they don’t expect me to be as polished. They don’t expect me to know my shit the way that I do. I have people come up to me. I went to this new meetup with other agency owners and in Atlanta, it’s 30 people in the room. I’m the only female. And I’m the only black person it’s all white male agency owners. And I’m talking to some of them and they’re just like, well, how’d you get Home Depot? How did you get Chick-Fil A? And I’m like the same way you can try them clients, but it’s like, they don’t expect me to operate at that level because it’s that underlying bias, which is like, really frustrating.

Mike King 

Yeah. And so in my experience, you know, I think there’s a lot of coded language that they use in some cases. So I’ve had instances where prospects have said like, Oh, we don’t think you guys are strategic enough. And then they’ll say the reason why they went with someone else is exactly a series of things that I had presented in my presentation. So it’s like a coded way of being like, Oh, we don’t think you’re smart. And you know, I really don’t do well with that type of stuff. 

Like I don’t code switch. I don’t hide from it. I don’t react well to it. So those are situations where it’s really good for me to have account people, like Jarrett and so on, that can be that proxy. So I don’t have to react. Like I’m just not that involved in the discussion. So another thing I’m curious about, because, you know, I know you have all the certifications, what has that yielded for you? I know you’re like minority owned business certified, women owned business certified, like tell me more about the opportunities that that creates.

Octavia Gilmore

Well. Um, so, you know, there’s this whole supplier diversity buzzword, which is some BS in my opinion, first of all, just having a real conversation. I don’t appreciate the fact that I have to pay somebody a third party to certify them black. Right? I already have to deal with it, and I have to pay you to confirm that’s what I am. So I didn’t, I wasn’t messing with it, but a lot of my corporate clients were like, no, get it, blah, blah, blah. It’s gonna open up more doors. I will say, where it has been beneficial is I do a lot of executive leadership development, right? 

I didn’t go to business school. I have a degree in graphic design, no business, you know, experience whatsoever. So when I want to take a class at Tufts school of business or Harvard school of business, it costs money. So what do I do? I turn to these corporations and say, Hey, can you give me a few thousand dollars. Cause I’m trying to take this class and they say, sure, why not? So I’ve definitely been able to leverage that, to do a lot of education, to help me learn more about being a successful business owner. 

They also, depending on what certification you have, they have events and conferences. It’s a great opportunity to network with other minority and female businesses and do businesses with them, which is really cool. As far as expanding my relationship with my existing corporate clients has not happened. Unfortunately, all of my corporate clients work with me just because we’re a good agency, not through their supplier diversity initiatives. So again, that’s something I’m constantly frustrated about. I will also say I have a government certification called a DBE, which is a disadvantaged business entity and it’s for smaller businesses.

And a lot of times these big companies, they get awarded these contracts and they have to give a certain percent percentage to a DBE. So in those cases, they reach out to me and they’re like, Hey, this project is a hundred thousand dollars. I got to get 25% for a minority owned business. What, you know, I need you to do this for 25 K and it had, it can work to my favor where maybe what they need is only like 5K but with 25% I get the 25 K and that’s happened. But that’s another way that you’re able to leverage those certifications as well.

Mike King 

Gotcha. Yeah. So I’ve been kind of, I mean, frankly, the way I’ve looked at this stuff is that I haven’t really wanted to lean into that stuff and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. I think that, you know, for me, I’m just black, right? Like I don’t, I don’t feel the need to be like, Hey guys, I’m a black owned business and so on and so forth. And you know, I’ve looked at it like, is this a disadvantage that I’m not leveraging these programs and so on and so forth? You know, cause like you said, a lot of these businesses do get some sort of like tax incentive or something like that to work with minority owned businesses. So it creates more opportunities, but I just haven’t jumped at that. So I was just curious, you know, what you had gotten out of it. So Jarrett’s back.

Jarrett Thomas

Yes. The power went out and came right back on. So sorry guys.

Mike King 

So we were just talking about her minority certifications and so on. I know you had another question.

Jarrett Thomas

Yeah. I was curious about the, what are some of the challenges now, like prior to COVID right? What were some of those challenges that you’re dealing with during the recession? How did they differ from the ones prior to COVID?

Octavia Gilmore

Well, my biggest challenge pre-COVID was just trying to figure out how to scale my business. Knowing that I need more people to make more money, but then I need more money for more people. So what comes first, chicken or the egg? Before COVID, It was more about sustaining. Like a lot of my large clients were like, yo, we need to hit pause on that contract real fast. Or instead of us giving you, you know, 15K, we kind of need to only spend 5K. So, that’s kinda something I’ve been dealing with just really trying to sustain me and keep my doors open has been a little challenging for us. 

I had to lay some people off, unfortunately, but I’m really big on my people. So I’m always trying to figure out how do I make sure my people are fed and and trying to keep the morale high. We are in a global pandemic. We are in a recession. You can’t go outside. A lot of my employees live by themselves. So just trying to figure out how do I keep everybody energized and excited about the work that they’re doing has been something that I’m still trying to figure out. Essentially.

Jarrett Thomas

I think that’s a big thing, keeping the morale up. And I definitely would love to hear like, how do you guys do that? How do you balance keeping the morale up and still running the business. Cause you guys know there are internal goals that still have to be hit. So how do you keep that straight face? And yeah, Mike, you do a terrific job.

Mike King 

The thing is this, if you’re a business owner, you’re always living with uncertainty. So the uncertainty that everyone is feeling right now is what I have every day, you know what I mean? Like you just have to keep your eye on the target and then know, here are the steps that you need to take to get there and just continue to work towards it and continue to manufacture that serendipity. So you make those things happen. You know, the reality is like there’s been many times in running this business that things have fallen apart with some degree or we lost clients or weren’t sure if people were going to be paid on time, but those are all things that I generally shield the team from. 

Like it was just to the point where it’s like, Hey, this is a global pandemic and I need y’all help. We had like, I had no choice, but to be perfectly forthcoming and come up with a plan of what we needed to do in order to stay alive. And so everybody could contribute. Cause it wasn’t a thing that I could just do by myself and everybody in our organization that stepped up. And I think it’s been more a function of all of us working together to get there and keeping all of each other like, um, energized and hopeful to make it through.

Octavia Gilmore

Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, to that point, 2020 was going to be like the year that I had a specific revenue goal. Right? And now looking at that bank account, like nah playa, we ain’t gone get that unless something happens. So I had to really be like, no, it’s a global pandemic. Like you can’t beat yourself up, like everyone, nearly everyone, but a lot of businesses are struggling. So if your revenue from this year is looking like, you know, three years ago, at least I still have revenue, right. I could be in the 41% that you mentioned don’t exist anymore. I count the blessings and being thankful and having gratitude, you know? As long as you keep your doors open essentially.

Mike King 

Yeah. I got a question cause I’m bad at this and I know you mentioned it earlier. How do you leverage your network? Like, you know, I have a really big network and I never asked anybody for anything. So how do you go about it?

Octavia Gilmore

I’m bad at it too. I hired a chief growth officer. She’s really good at it. She’s really good at building rapport and kind of working those relationships saying, Hey, I’m trying to pitch, you know, this company I see you’re connected to so and so can you do that introduction? So it really is a job in itself and I think to your point, like we’re the entrepreneur. we try to keep things going, keep this engine running. I’m not saying we don’t have time, but it’s hard to kind of take that time out and really foster those relationships. 

So what I did was I hired a chief growth officer and that’s her responsibility, but she even be on my LinkedIn. Like I see you connected to this person and how do you know them and talk to them and ask them to it’s a lot of things being intertwined. But I see the value in it because similar to you, I don’t ask for referrals. I don’t use my network, but I have like 12,000 connections on LinkedIn. Like people know that I exist, but why am I not? Or how do I use that? And again, just bringing her in essentially.

Mike King 

Yeah. See, look, Tony called me out. He’s like, you never asked me for anything. That’s wrong. Use your network. And this is someone who I’ve worked for before he knows how good I am. I’ve never felt comfortable being like, yo Tony, can you help me with this thing? And you know, whereas anyone calls me, I’m like, yeah, sure. I’m happy to help. So I just, you know, it’s not a thing I do.

Jarrett Thomas

It goes back to that, go fund me thing we were thinking we were talking about earlier. 

Mike King 

Right. We’re not doing that. I don’t ask. 

Jarrett Thomas

It’s hard to make that ask. And when to make that ask is the hard part. Right. It’s like, I hate making the ask and told no.

Mike King 

So yeah. We’re coming up at time. Let’s get some of these questions that people asked.

Jarrett Thomas

Yeah. So we have one from Alex, right? So have there been times where you’ve received help or mentorship from someone unexpected and what can others who don’t necessarily understand your day to day challenges learn from those individuals?

Octavia Gilmore

I think you can learn something from anyone. I had some, high school interns, three of them, and one of them told me that he trades Forex. And I was like, what the heck is that? Sat me down and taught me that. So I think you can always learn something from anybody if you really just pay attention. And then what can other challenges learn from these individuals? Um, that is a very interesting question. Um, I don’t know. I have to think about that one.

Mike King 

Yeah. I mean, I think part of being a successful entrepreneur is understanding that information comes from everywhere and you have to be good at synthesizing it and knowing when you can learn from it. So, you know, like there are things I learned from people all across our team every day, there are things that I learned from people that I’ve worked with before or people that have nothing to do with our space. That would just drop something and I’m like, Ooh, I apply that to this. 

So, you know, being a good entrepreneur is all about being open to learning and looking at others who don’t necessarily understand your day to day challenges learn from these individuals. That’s a harder question. I mean, you know, you’re asking me to distill everything I’ve randomly learned across the last six years or 15 years or whatever. But you know, really it’s just like always be open to learning. That’s the only way you can make it.

Jarrett Thomas

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know we’re wrapping up on time. I don’t really, I have a few questions, but I know it’s going to drive us down a rabbit hole. I think we’re going to be the part two of this, but I do want to say thank you all for joining. Thank you for your continued support for our rankable, and would definitely be having more coming up. We have our next one on July 17th. You know, we’ll be recording live on the website. I’ll also share it on our LinkedIn. 

Please feel free to connect with us. We’d love to talk offline and connect with you, share some more insights and things of that nature. Always down to connect and talk. And one quick thing, please check out Octavia, Creative Juice, and the juicy solutions she provides. Definitely connect with her. Learn more about her, Octavia. Thank you so much for joining today, man. 

Octavia Gilmore

It was a pleasure. It was a lot of fun. So I’ll be back anytime y’all want me. 

Jarrett Thomas

There’s going to be a part two. Have a great one. Bye bye.